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Reply: The Ladies of Troyes:: Rules:: Re: Master Builder

July 8, 2013, 12:03 pm
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by louper

Speusippus wrote:

I have a different question about Master Builder. Do you spend the white dice to use Master Builder, and then spend another one or more white dice to place the cubes on the cathedral?

I think probably so, but I just want to make sure.


No - you use white cubes to activate Master Builder and, for each activation, you can place a cube in the cathedral in any legal place (i.e., no empty gaps in a column).

It makes no difference what specific dice were used to activate the Builder - just their total value.

No additional dice are needed to use the Master Builder.
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Reply: The Ladies of Troyes:: Rules:: Re: Master Builder

July 8, 2013, 12:07 pm
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by Speusippus

Oh, good to know. I guess I was misled by this text:

"Just as in the base game, each cube placed grants the Infl uence points and the VPs associated with the die’s value."

This implied to me that you had to use a die to place the cube, over and beyond the die or dice you'd used to activate the card. But I guess the "die" being referred to is "virtual"--just whatever die you see pictured at the bottom of the column you build on.
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Reply: The Ladies of Troyes:: Rules:: Re: Master Builder

July 8, 2013, 12:13 pm
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by louper

I can see how that text is misleading, yes. I focused on the first sentence, "This permits you to place a cube on the cathedral in an empty space of your choice...", emphasis mine.

I interpret the last statement as referring to the "virtual" die as you described it.

The Troyes (and expansion) rules aren't the most well-written documents in the world. I think that's a conclusion that can be easily reached.
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Reply: The Ladies of Troyes:: Strategy:: Re: Ramparts useful in 2 player games?

July 8, 2013, 1:37 pm
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by Speusippus

Or maybe just adding three to the value. (Doubling from 6 to 12 might be extreme...)
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Thread: The Ladies of Troyes:: Rules:: Viticulturist Question

July 8, 2013, 11:47 pm
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by Speusippus

Can I, in a single turn, use (for example) three cubes to buy three dice for free? Can they be from the same player if so?

Or, alternatively, is it limited to one cube per action?
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Reply: The Ladies of Troyes:: Rules:: Re: Viticulturist Question

July 9, 2013, 1:19 am
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by Svartisen

The rule of one cube per action applies here. So you can't use three cubes from Viticulturist to buy three dice in one action. Check the example of using Viticulturist next to the card description.
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Reply: The Ladies of Troyes:: Rules:: Re: Viticulturist Question

July 9, 2013, 1:21 am
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Reply: The Ladies of Troyes:: Strategy:: Re: Ramparts useful in 2 player games?

July 9, 2013, 6:05 am
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by Speusippus

I tried mathing it out a bit in my head last night. In theory it seems like the rule as written should work about the same for 2p as 4p. (I didn't do the math for 3p.) Basically, in both cases, to get all the way around the edge of the board requires a player to dedicate just about one ninth of his total "potential pips" for the game. ("Potential pips" meaning the number of dice he will roll throughout the game on average, times six.) Granted in a four player game, this equates to dedicating three pips per round, while in a two player game, it equates to dedicating five pips per round. But on the other hand, in a two player game, the player has more pips to play with, and more chances to use them (since he will tend to get more actions per round).

So anyway, that's the "in theory" way I'm seeing it right now.

What are the things you guys are doing with straggling ones, twos and even threes toward the end of the round? Placing in the buildings for the most part I would guess? How do you measure whether this is worth more than using the ramparts?
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Reply: The Ladies of Troyes:: Strategy:: Re: Ramparts useful in 2 player games?

July 9, 2013, 6:18 am
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by Svartisen

Straggling 1-3s

You're right. Placing in the buildings seems most obvious but it depends on what cards are in play. If you have cubes on cards that can influence the value of a die/dice, there may be a more efficient way to use them. I think, that in your calculations, you should take into account the probability of such activities appearing in the game.
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Reply: The Ladies of Troyes:: Strategy:: Re: Ramparts useful in 2 player games?

July 9, 2013, 7:16 am
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by Speusippus

Ah... and you can't use cubes to modify rampart dice can you? That would make a difference!

Hrm.

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Reply: The Ladies of Troyes:: Strategy:: Re: Ramparts useful in 2 player games?

July 9, 2013, 7:18 am
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by Speusippus

But... you can modify with deniers, which may make up for that. I don't know! I should play a lot more before I can feel comfortable really saying anything about this. But you're right, the modification issue does make a problem for the seemingly straightforward math/theorycrafting.
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Reply: The Ladies of Troyes:: Strategy:: Re: Ramparts useful in 2 player games?

July 9, 2013, 9:08 am
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by Speusippus

Think about it this way: By making a rampart move, for a single measly denier you can buy the opportunity to get four influence, or reroll an expended die, or exchange one pair of dice with each player. That seems pretty powerful tbh. You do have to eat the cost of the die you spent, but after that, each single tiny denier you spend gives you access to some fairly incredible powers...

(Interestingly I've found some of the level-I outside activities to be more meaningful than higher level ones. Getting four influence for placing a family member in a building is actually kind of insane. And adding five gold to agriculture suddenly makes agriculture a viable alternative to some other money-making cards in the game.)
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Thread: The Ladies of Troyes:: General:: Will possibly be teaching this game tonight.

July 9, 2013, 9:11 am
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by Speusippus

My plan is to use the expansion character cards, activity cards and event cards even for the first game since they don't seem to really add any complexity to general gameplay. Then on the second play I'll see if they feel like adding the ramparts and purple cubes.

Does this sound like a good approach to you guys? Or are there reasons to just start with absolutely vanilla Troyes?
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Reply: The Ladies of Troyes:: Strategy:: Re: Ramparts useful in 2 player games?

July 9, 2013, 9:24 am
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by nolemarquez

What I think is that in 2 player game it is much easier to make a group of 2-3 dice, which makes it much better to use activity cards, catedral, etc. (you can only use one dice for ramparts).

When you play 3-4 (specially 4 player), you get to use 1 dice more often, which maked the ramparts more attractive. Also since there is more competition for activity cards it is more posible that 1 or 2 players might dedícate their time on ramparts to get the IV victory points awarded if you move through all the ramparts).
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Reply: The Ladies of Troyes:: General:: Re: Will possibly be teaching this game tonight.

July 9, 2013, 9:26 am
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by louper

It seems fine to me - if your group is moderately experienced with Euros, the slightly more complex activities (like the mixed-activity cards) shouldn't provide any problems.

And yeah, I'd leave ramparts off - it increases the number of options which can already be overwhelming in the first several plays.
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Reply: The Ladies of Troyes:: General:: Re: Will possibly be teaching this game tonight.

July 9, 2013, 9:53 am
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by senorcoo

Totally agree. Leave the ramparts off for the first play. There is already a lot of iconography to digest.
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Reply: The Ladies of Troyes:: Strategy:: Re: Ramparts useful in 2 player games?

July 9, 2013, 12:50 pm
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by nyuhase

I play most of my games two player, but we have gotten a decent number of 3 and even a 4 player game in the mix. To me, the use or lack of use of the ramparts depends far more on the activity cards in play, the events to combat, and which ramparts they are than the number of players.

What I mean: if some aspect is lacking (money, influence, etc...) and a rampart is in play that can help that, they are more likely to get used. Or if a rampart pairs well with an activity card to create a good combo, they are more likely to get used. Or if the events are a getting out of control, that level 2 rampart to discard a cube to combat a black die sure can be nice... These types of decisions are what influence if I traverse the ramparts.

I will say I do tend to do things with groups of 3 dice and try to save a little 1 or 2 pip die for my wall-walking though. Or if someone bought that 6 pip die I was going to use with those 1 and 3 pip dice of the same color for 10 total pips, I may decide to use that 3 to walk the wall instead. It just adds more options for the single dice other than adding to a red, yellow, and white buildings.
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Thread: The Ladies of Troyes:: General:: Chief Outlaw--Powerful! Too powerful?

July 9, 2013, 9:51 pm
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by Speusippus

We played a game tonight in which the chief outlaw turned up. It seems nearly impossible to get rid of the thing! You have to have just exactly the right confluence of dice.

We finally did in the very last round (by then we had five or six black dice hitting us--all sixes in that last round). I had two of the necessary red dice, and another player had the third, and I was first player that round. So I just kicked the dice around the circle a couple of times, everybody lost all their dice, then on my first play after the black dice I bought the third red and killed the outlaw.* It made for a nice story--I had let them do all the real fighting then just came in and made a showing at the end, stealing all the glory. Very Troyes.

But anyway, though this made for a fun time this time, it does seem as though the event is way too difficult to get rid of. AFAICT the only way to get rid of it is to put together sixteen points on red dice. This is made especially difficult by the fact that your best bet for defeating the dice in the first place will involve expending your red dice!

Do you guys find it to be disproportionately hard to get rid of?

*I forget why he hadn't used it himself, but there was some reason or other.
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Reply: The Ladies of Troyes:: General:: Re: Chief Outlaw--Powerful! Too powerful?

July 10, 2013, 12:28 am
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by Svartisen

Yes. It's hard to counter, but I like this event anyway. Event management is a part of tactics in Troyes. Do you have enough red power to fight black dice? Will your opponents suffer more than you, when events become too powerful, or there will be too much of them? Under certain conditions you can use that event to widen the gap between your opponents and yourself. And sometimes it can result in cooperation, which is also an important factor when fighting events. People get frustrated when they have to face 6 6s' all the time and start to cooperate:)
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Reply: The Ladies of Troyes:: General:: Re: Will possibly be teaching this game tonight.

July 10, 2013, 5:36 am
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by Speusippus

Just to quickly report, they loved it. I warned them it tends to hit people like a brick wall the first time they play. The group trooped through, started to really "get it" halfway into the first game (after having expressed some doubts about what they'd gotten themselves into!) then after the first game was over, requested a second play. We played til 1AM. This is extraordinary because we are all dads with lots of kids and jobs and things. ;)

Did not use the ramparts on either play, but will do so in a future session.
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